June 23, 2012 - Raid Thoughts

[Denrael]

Some points that were brought up:

Longer raids are annoying

Longer raids are meant to be easier raids and require less coordination. However I wonder if just based on the type of game this is, that the requirement to actively "play" makes long raids a lot more fatiguing than it might be in the spreadsheet MMOs. To play devil's advocate - what if a raid was 24hrs and balanced such that it was easy to finish, and offered no bonus for finishing it faster?

Thanks for all the feedback so far.

This got me thinking and it's an interesting point. I think the problem with the longer raid as it stands today is that it's also one that requires a large number of people to be involved during the entire time frame. This isn't WoW, and I think it requires a different model, which is what Venan is feeling out.

To answer your question, yes, I think a 24 hour raid COULD work, if it didn't require a full cast of people to be logged the entire time to make it happen. I'd like to see a (one or two, not all) long term raid that limited the number of concurrent seats but went on over time. Bonuses if any would be awarded on something other than duration, such as highest DPS sustained over some time frame or something similar. For guilds with people all over the globe, this could be turned into something that would bond people that couldn't be on at the same time. It also would be easier to drop in and out of. Perhaps mix it up with the phases, one normal, one onslaught, or geared toward different class skills. I think there are a lot of ways to take raids other than just time based. I'm just babbling here at this point, but I wanted to say that I like the thought process Venan. I'd love to drop in on a guild raid in progress while I'm waiting to board a plane, get a few rounds in, help the guild and then get on with things.

Denrael

[Asheena]

Although raid is a feature not often found in any other games, this whole dilemma can easily boil down to 2 directions faced by any mmorpg games: Do the developer want to appeal to the hardcore players, or to appeal to casual gamers?

Most hardcore gamers will not mind 3 hour raids, while that is almost out of the question for any casual gamers who want to pop in from time to time.

I think PvP can be implemented, but I do not encourage the PvP to be a major part of the game and definitely should not be obligatory (THAT is a big turn off for casual gamers, who do not like to be hit by someone within 5 minutes of their game)

In terms of raid times, it comes down to appealing your audience. Long raids will let hardcore gamers flex, but will discourage casual gamers, while short raids will make the game less worthy for hardcore.

Do note that most casual gamers do like to create their own guild instead of joining one.

Once again, it's up to Venan to determine which section of audience they want this game to appeal to.

[BG_Neeeky]

May be there is a way to strike a balance between long (hardcore) raids and shorter (casual) raids. I would suggest the introduction of "bet raids" or if you prefer the term to be more "gamer-ish" - "bounty raids" or "local speed-runs".

The mechanism should be simple - the guild is given the option to choose the time for completion and number of participants for any given raid. The basic raid stats remain untouched, meaning the number of waves/onslaught phases/types of monsters/monster's levels.

How this can work? The guild master/officer that is going to start a raid will have the options to choose either the traditional "gold/silver/bronze" type of raid, or (depending on how well the guild is organized) - to be presented with yet another option screen, where to choose the preferred completion time (increasing in 5 mins intervals) and the estimated number of participants that are going to complete this raid.

Taking as an example the GG raid (93 waves, 2:15 hours to complete), a "bounty GG Raid" can be set to "10 mins by 8 members + 2 mercs". If the bounty raid ("BR" for short? - "Are we going for some BeeRs today?") is completed within these 10 minutes - then the guild gets its reward . If not - no reward at all.

Of course, there should be developed some formula to calculate adequate rewards and a "10 mins by 8 members + 2 mercs GG BR" shall be awarded higher than "1 hour by 15 members GG BR", etc.

[Asheena]

I'm not sure about balancing between harcore and casual gamers. Usually when game developers try to satisfy both, most of the time is disappointed both sides.

However I will say this:
2 energy per encounter can get really annoying in long raids. This basically implies that whoever wants to win has to use GS. Personally, I would keep the 2 energy per raid entry, but turn each encounter into an onslaught raid. That way, it becomes a test of might or test of haste gems. That way if anything, it does make raids more exciting. In this platform, people can increase RPP in one of the following methods: 1) Use GS or 2) Upgrade your character with haste and fast kills. That way both GS spenders and non-GS spenders can equally enjoy the game.

[GirlsLoveRobots]

Not sure if it has been said, just skipped to the end, but...

I would like to see an added merc option for the guild to be able to set a certain amount of energy required to play. This is the same idea as a boss dungeon. This would hopefully mitigate the amount of mercs that enter a raid and just 1 hit filling a possibly much needed merc spot.

On the same thought though, it would only count for mercs, not guild members who enter and do the same. This would only matter if you had a raid that used all 100 slots which is highly unlikely given my experience.

[Illy_the_Red]

This is easily solved by removing the upper limit on mercs in raids. Let a guild decide how many mercs is enough, it worked fine in 1.5 when the upper limit for contributors to a raid was the number of people in the guild. Stepping back toward that would be a good move. Back in 1.5, if a merc came to a raid and only hit once, it was frowned upon but wasn't going to affect your raid. Now, it's a chunk of RPP lost that you can't get back unless through burning or epots.

[Raible]

One big one - do people like raids to be pop-in, burn energy, pop-out, or is there a desire to see a more coordinated action required during a raid? The more tactical we make them, the harder they will be to finish and the more coordination will be required of the guild. Which may be counter to how some people like to play the game.

The consensus in my guild is that LoB is too big of a time sink. You asked this question over a year ago and we've had a chance to get a good feel for the "harder" and more "tactical" raid and most I talk to seem to agree it's just too much. Hard isn't bad, it's the time investment. It just requires too much time.

I've been playing the game for a year now and part of the draw is the ability to drop in for a few minutes and contribute. You can't do that with LoB. It takes forever just to drop a 50bar. I'm in top 25 guild of nearly 100 people and I know of ONE person in our guild who's in school. Everyone else has a full time job. The vast majority married with children. At the end of the day, this is a fun little game on our phone and not something we can jeopardize RL responsibilities over.

I'm not suggesting LoB be removed, or even changed for that matter. However, please give it some thought when designing the next two raids for future updates.

[Darkhorse]

One big one - do people like raids to be pop-in, burn energy, pop-out, or is there a desire to see a more coordinated action required during a raid? The more tactical we make them, the harder they will be to finish and the more coordination will be required of the guild. Which may be counter to how some people like to play the game.

The consensus in my guild is that LoB is too big of a time sink. You asked this question over a year ago and we've had a chance to get a good feel for the "harder" and more "tactical" raid and most I talk to seem to agree it's just too much. Hard isn't bad, it's the time investment. It just requires too much time.

I've been playing the game for a year now and part of the draw is the ability to drop in for a few minutes and contribute. You can't do that with LoB. It takes forever just to drop a 50bar. I'm in top 25 guild of nearly 100 people and I know of ONE person in our guild who's in school. Everyone else has a full time job. The vast majority married with children. At the end of the day, this is a fun little game on our phone and not something we can jeopardize RL responsibilities over.

I'm not suggesting LoB be removed, or even changed for that matter. However, please give it some thought when designing the next two raids for future updates.

Hopefully "Hunted in the Mists" will fill the need for a less intense raid after Vile Gate.

[Bimbosigliere]

REDACTED.

[Gary_]

Deleted